Subject: 7  Marketplace


Subject: 7.1  Marketplace hints/guidelines
From: Jim Siler <ksi@panix.com>

: Are people really willing to pay 10% less for a "nearly new" MTB when
: they
:        a) often have no assurance that it really hasn't been used
:           (except of course someone's word)

:        b) may have to buy, unseen.

:        c) may not get a transferable waranty on the MTB

I think that in general, many people are acutely aware of what they
spent for a thing and are woefully unaware of how much value that thing
lost when they walked out of the store.  Let's assume for a moment
that I buy an XTR rear derailleur in my local shop (good practice,
worth some added cost) for $100.  I use it for a week, and trash my
frame and want to part it out.  Hmmm... this was $100 new and its only
a week old, virtually new.  Let's ask $90 o.b.o. and see what happens.

Now I change roles and become the buyer.

I go to my local bike shop, where I trust the owner and am willing
to pay a premium, but no XTR rear derailleur.  Next stop mail order.
Everyone but everyone has it for $80, plus shipping, but less tax.
They will take a credit card.  The unit is warrantied, in the box,
with instructions (the value of which should not be underesimated).

Given this I am unlikeley to even consider the used part.  But let's
suppose I offer $75, and send off my money order, sight unseen.
What can happen?

1 --    It never arrives.  After a number of hassles and excuses I
        realize that there is a major problem.  Email stops being
        returned.  I contact his sysadm, who can't do much.  I
        publicly flame him, starting one more interminable flame
        war.  Eventually I either get my $75 bucks back or not.
        Even if I get the derailleur (remeber, the original
        object was the derailleur) I have bought myself
        hundreds of dollars worth of aggravation.

2 --    It arrives and looks like hell.  C'est la vie.

3 --    I arrives and one week later it is obvious that something
        is seriously wrong.  No amount of adjustment will cause
        it to shift reliably for any length of time.  See 2, above.

4 --    While waiting for arrival i trash MY frame.  Derailleur
        arrives.  Sadly, I have nothing to hang it on.  See 2,

Let's run through the same scenarios having purchased through mail
order, using a credit card.

1 --    I don't pay.  If they get pissy about it I do too.  As most
        mail order houses have, at best,  a fragile relationship
        with Mastecard/Visa (it is VERY difficult to open a merchant
        account to accept credit cards over the phone for mail order,
        so difficult that many use their in store accounts, faking
        signatures) and are dependent on that relationship to stay
        in business, they tend to become most reasonable when you
        make real noise with the credit card company.

2 --    Unlikely, as goods should be new.  See 1, above.

3 --    Warranty problem.  If you have a good local dealer, you
        would have been better off there.  If you have a so-so
        dealer you may well be better off through mail order.
        Worse comes to worst, see 1, above.

4 --    Worst case, you eat a restocking fee.

In general, I would be hesitant to buy anything here for much more
than 60% of its mail order price, unless the product is exactly
what I want and all else is right.

I have bought two things this year through this group, a GT Zaskar LE
frame, new in the box with slight cosmetic ding for $350 (negotiated
from $375) and a Flashlite 2 tent with a tiny hole, professionally
repaired, for $100.  Both carried resonable prices in the original
post, offered to pay the shipping, and clearly spelled out the
possible problems with the product for sale.  Both sales were
satisfactory to all involved, and I am delighted with both.

I have seen many other Items for sale that I have wanted and bought
elsewhere because the posted prices were so ridiculous that I
had no basis for negotiation.  Typically, these are reposted with
sad wonderings as to why no one has responded.  C'est la vie.

In general, I think that anyone wanting to move something quickly
through posting should do the following:

        Be realistic with price.  Look at the true market value of
        your goods.  It is not what you paid.  You are going to take
        a loss.  If your fork, which was the hottest thing in July
        of this year, cost you $600 in a store is not any better
        than the new $375 fork that is available in December, its
        market value is certainly no more than $375, if it is new.
        Unless limited availability takes it out of the commodity
        realm (e.g., my Zaskar frame with blemish had only limited
        availibility) knock off 40% of the realistic market value.
        Our fork is now down to $225.  If this makes you too
        queasy, up it a bit and throw in shipping, say $275 with
        U.P.S. ground shipping, hmmm... not too bad.

        Clearly state everything of importance to the buyer, good
        and bad.  This will avoid later hassles, and greatly increase
        your trust factor.

        Don't initially offer at an inflated price, thinking to
        negotiate down (remember back to Onza Clipless Pedals for
        sale flame war).  It just makes it clear to an intellegent
        buyer that you are hoping to find a sucker, and will take
        whatever advantage you can.  This may not be true, but it
        will be clear, nonetheless.  Trust factor goes down the

        Make phone contact as soon as possible.  A human voice is
        often more comforting than an email address.

To anyoune who has read this far, thanks for putting up with my
rambling and opining.


Subject: 7.2  Bike Trailers

[Ed note:  The posting I saved on bike trailers is over 145k bytes, so
if you want a copy see the section on "Archives".]


Subject: 7.3  One Less Car T-Shirts
From: Alayne McGregor <alayne@gandalf.UUCP>
                       (Ed Ravin  panix!eravin@cmcl2.nyu.edu)

The T-shirts are produced by Transportation Alternatives, a New York
City bicycle activist group. They're 100% cotton, have the TA logo
on the front, and ONE LESS CAR on the back.  Call TA for colors and
sizes currently in stock.  They're US$15 each.  No refunds or
exchanges.  Allow 6 weeks for delivery.  For people who have to
drive but feel guilty about it, they also have "I'm Polluting the
Atmosphere" bumper stickers at 3 for $5.

Send orders to:

Transportation Alternatives
92 Saint Marks Place
New York, NY 10009
attn: One Less Car

I happen to have one of these shirts in my closet right now. Causes lots
of comments when my covivant and I ride our tandem with both us wearing
our shirts.


Subject: 7.4  Panniers and Racks
From: Sharon Pedersen <pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu>

This is a condensed version of a longer article on panniers, low-rider
racks, loading and generators.  --Sharon   pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu

Price--cheaper may not be better, if they fall apart.  Commuting to
school entails stuffing sharp-cornered books into them thus making
sturdiness as important here as for touring.

Cut--an angled cut may make those books not fit so well.

Pockets--convenient for organization, but cuts down on versatile use
of space.  You can use stuff sacks for organization instead of pockets.
One big and one small pocket on each pannier is plenty.

Fastening--lots of options:  bungees and hooks, or fixed placement
hooks, or straps with buckles or cams.  Bungees and hooks have been
just fine in my own road experience, but for off-road riding, you will
want more security.  However, don't get a system with so many
attachments that you can't stand to take the panniers on/off.

Brands--the following is a by no means exhaustive list, with
telegraphic comments made in 1988.  Check local stores since features
may have changed since then.
  Eclipse--(no comment);  Kirtland--tourers like them;
  MPacks--panniers made by an actual bike tourer, Mike Center, in
    Santa Rosa, CA, (707) 545-4624;
  Maddens--made in Boulder, "superior construction at better than
    average cost" yeah!  (I love mine, write for more glowing testimonials);
  Performance--low-cost, non-spring attachment;  Rhode Gear--expensive;
  Tailwind--aerodynamic, rigid attachment.

                         --LOW-RIDER RACKS--
  Some manufacturers: Bruce Gordon, Blackburn, Vetta, Voyager.  The
Bruce Gordons are more expensive (~$70 in 1988) but are designed with
clearance for the quick-release skewer so you don't have to pry them
apart to take the front wheel off.

                            --REAR RACKS--
  (No comment in the original article;  Blackburns seem to be the
standard and durable enough.)

  Balance the load side-to-side and, if possible, fore-and-aft.
Keep heavier items low and towards the bottom bracket.  Rider, bike
and luggage together should have 55-60% of weight on rear wheel;
remainder on front.  Bike with front low-riders is quite stable.

  The usual location on the left seat-stay interferes with panniers.
Mount the generator on the right seat-stay facing the other way, and
it will work fine, despite rotating "backwards."  Or go with a
generator under the bottom bracket, which will have the advantage of
putting the wear on the tread rather than the sidewall of the tire.


Subject: 7.5  Clothing materials
From: Jim Carson <carson@mu.rice.edu>

[Ed note: From a summary Jim posted]

  Fluffy, fleecy stuff also called Polarplus and Synchilla.  Comfortable.
  Incredibly warm, especially under something that breaks the wind.
  Doesn't wick moisture out very well.  Breathes very well.

Supplex (nylon)
  Comfortable.  It is breathable and water repellent (but NOT water proof).
  Seems to absorb a small amount of water if it is really getting drenched
Merino (wool)
  From a "breed of fine-wooled white sheep originating in Spain and producing
  a heavy fleece of exceptional quality."  I guess you could treat this as
  normal 100% wool.
  An improvement on Polypro.  The big advantage is heat resistance so
  you can put it in the dryer.  Balance that against the extra cost.
  This stuff seems more like a plastic bag than the revolutionary wicking
  material it is advertised as.
  Trademark name for Dupont polyester.  Woven fabric made from dacron is
  similar to nylon ripstop or taffeta, but not as stretchy.  Many of the
  better clothing insulations are made from dacron.  They are usually refered
  to by more specific trademark names, like quallofil, hollofil, polarguard,
  and dacron-88.
  Used for its stretch, mostly a warm weather (>65 degrees) thing.

  A teflon based membrane with microscopic holes.  Gortex's claim to
  fame is that it will let water vapor (from perspiration) through, but
  not liquid water (rain).  It blocks wind fairly well too.  The
  membrane is delicate, so it always comes laminated between 2 layers of
  other material.  It does not breathe enough.  There are less expensive
  Does not wick very well.  Can be uncomfortable.  Troublesome to
  care for (e.g. can pill badly)  Will keep you fairly warm if soaked.
  Not very wind resistant.  Melts in the dryer.
  Wicks moisture away.  Very comfortable.  Comes in different weights
  for more/less warmth.  [lots of favorable things about it... only
  really unfavorable thing is the co$t]
60/40 cloth -
  This is a cloth with nylon threads running one direction, cotton in
  the other. It was the standard wind parka material before Goretex came
  along, and is considerably less expensive.  Good wind resistance,
  fairly breathable.  Somewhat water resistant, especially if you spray
  it with Scotchguard, but won't hold up to a heavy rain.

Subject: 7.6  Seats

Seats are a very personal thing, for obvious reasons.  There are several
types of seats:

  Seats like the Brooks models.  Usually used by hard-core riders.  Requires
  breaking in before it's really comfortable.

  The usual bike seat, sometimes refered to as "anatomic".  Has padding
  where your "sit bones" (bottom of pelvis) supposed to rest.

  Like the padded seats, except they have a gel (e.g. Spenco Gel) in them
  for additional padding.  Reportedly, the gel can harden and/or shift,
  making the seat uncomfortable.

There are several types of seat pads (gel filled, containing an air bladder,
etc) that can be fitted over the seat to make it more comfortable.

If you are experiencing pain in delicate areas (especially you women readers)
you should make sure your seat is adjusted correctly (see the section on
seat adjustment).  Women may need a women's type seat, which is wider in
the back (women's sit bones are farther apart than men's).  Most pain
can be eliminated by a correctly adjusted seat, using a women's seat,
and riding so your body becomes used to it.


Subject: 7.7  Women's Saddles
From: Pamela Blalock <pamelab@pcdocs.com>

Many women who cycle have experienced frustration with trying to find
a comfortable saddle. It is amazing how many times I end up talking
with other women about saddles.  This article comes from those
discussions and an informal survey of woman's saddle preferences. This
is a dynamic article and changes on occasion, so if you have comments
please contact me (pamelab@pcdocs.com) and I will incorporate your

While this is intended to be an article on women's saddles, since so
many other things can contribute to potential saddle pain, it will
also address some of these issues as well.

Just as women are different from men, we are also different from each
other.  Since (fortunately) there is no mold into which we were all
poured, what works for one woman may not work for another.

First, be sure that your bike fits properly.  Many women end up with
overly padded shorts and a big fat thickly padded saddle instead of
with a bike that fits properly. No saddle will be comfortable if the
bike is too big, or set up incorrectly. It is important to find
someone who knows about fit and specifically about women's fit and get
the bike set up properly before making other changes. In addition to
being more comfortable, a bike that really fits will also handle
better than one that is improperly sized. It isn't always easy to find
someone willing to take the time, but when you find a shop that will,
give them lots of business and send your friends there! Go to shops
during non-prime hours for the best service. You won't get a salesman
to spend an hour letting you try different saddles on a Saturday
afternoon, but you might on a Tuesday morning.

[ See Section 7.8 for more information on bikes for women ]

Now to saddles. A woman's hip bones tend to be set farther apart than
a man's.  (This is a design feature to help with childbirth!)  Every
woman is different, and there are many women out there with narrower
hip bones. To determine where you sit bones are, sit on a low curb.
Sorry, a chair won't do! When you sit on the curb, you will be able to
feel your sit bones. This is what you want supported by your bike
saddle. Avocet used to run a great ad showing a hip bone sitting on a
saddle. (look in old copies of bike magazines). With a saddle that's
too narrow, a woman may find herself effectively straddling it with
her hip bones, or slipping off of one side and pinching nerves - which
may eventually cause the legs or feet to go numb. A saddle that's too
wide will also cause problems.

A saddle that's slightly wider in the back (than the man's saddle that
comes on most stock bikes) may offer better support for the sit bones.
BTW, I'm not talking about those foot wide saddles you see on exercise
bikes at the gym. These are too wide for anyone.

I have quite a few retired women's saddles with depressed gel
indicating exactly where my bones are. Actually, looking at and
feeling your old saddle will tell you a lot about where you do and do
not need support! It's important to try out several different saddles
to find one that fits.  Terry does produce a couple of different width
models but they are still somewhat limited.  Widths do vary from
manufacturer to manufacturer - so for example, if the Terry is too
wide or too narrow, try the Vetta or Avocet or some other brand. Ask
your local dealer to let you put your bike on a trainer in the shop
and try sitting on and riding a few of his saddles. Saddles are fairly
easy to change and a good shop should be willing to let you try this.
(But not on a busy Saturday afternoon!) Some shops now have a device
that makes this easier. It is a stationary bike with merry-go-round of
saddles. You can sit on the saddle, pedaling, and then dismount and
swing the next saddle to be tried in place. It isn't as good as trying
a saddle on your bike, but will tell you a lot more than holding a
saddle and poking it, which it seems it how most saddles are

There are several women's saddles on the market, many of which are
padded with some form of gel. I have used (and retired) several of
these with no complaints. The gel does compress after a while
(regardless of sex), so these saddles do have to be replaced (for me
it's every 10,000 miles). Brooks also has several different models of
women's leather saddles, which some women swear by. I swar at them,
but that's me! (And there are women who swear at the saddles I swear
by!) And rather than needing to be replaced after 10,000 miles, the
Brooks is probably just getting broken in well at that point!

Many women who responded to my survey said that they have the nose of
their saddle tilted slightly forward to alleviate pressure on the soft
tissue. A large variety of saddles were used with this method. One
rider pointed out that having a seatpost with infinitely adjustable
angles, like the American Classic or Control Tech, will help one to
find the perfect angle. With the ratchet type adjustment of most, she
was never able to get the angle quite right. One problem with having
the saddle tilted too far forward is that you may end up with two much
weight/pressure on your wrists and hands. The result is numb hands and
pain in the lower back.

In John Forester's "Effective Cycling" book, he suggests getting a
cheap plastic saddle and carving out a depression in the area where
the labia would normally rest.  This would place the weight on the sit
bones where it belongs, and remove it from the genital area, where it
does not. A couple of women used this idea and modified saddle pads in
this way. I watched a Spenco pad slowly get modified in this way each
day throughout PAC Tour last year. One survey respondent cut up a
neoprene pad and put it under the covering of her Flite saddle.

There are a couple of women's saddles which specifically address this
issue, the Terry Sport and the (formerly) Miyata Pavea (see the end of
the article for more info on acquiring this saddle). Both are shorter
and wider than the typical man's saddle and both have a hole to
suspend soft tissue. These saddles should be comfortable when level.
The Miyata leaves the hole exposed, while the Terry is covered in an
open-cell low-density foam. I should also point out that with the
Terry, the hole is in the nose, while the Miyata saddle has the hole
in the middle, further back.

While like many women, I tend to bend more at the waist, I also roll
my hips forward on a saddle to get in a more comfortable (and aero
cycling position). This means that on a standard saddle I am pressing
directly on tender tissue. Since I've switched to a saddle with a hole
in it, I can without any saddle related discomfort roll my hips
forward, and strech out on the aero bars for hours!

I heard from Carol Grossman, an Australian rider praising another
saddle. She wrote , "I have a Selle Bassano modular seat, which may or
may not be available in the US ( I live in Australia now).  It has two
halves, with the split running nose-to-tail and a gap between them.
It joins together at the nose.  The width of the seat, and therefore
of the gap as well, is adjustable so you can set it to match the width
of your seatbones.  It has titanium rails, which give it a little bit
of spring.  I must say, though, that it is quite firm and if I have
not been riding much and go for a long ride I do get sore seatbones.
But I can live with sore seatbones!  Interestingly, the packaging
material said nothing about it being for women -- it was marketted as
a seat for men who suffered numbness."

My concern with this saddle is that as you make it wider in the back
to accommodate sit bones, you are also making the middle wider as
well. I have not personally triedon e of these yet.

T-Gear makes a leather saddle with a diamond shape cut in the middle.
The saddle is quite narrow and firm, and didn't fit me, but I've heard
some men rave about it. John, my SO found it too narrow in the back,
and too wide in the middle. Like the Selle Modular seat it is marketed
to men with numbness problems. (Mine is for sale!)

Another saddle I have tried very briefly is an Easy Seat. This is
actually two separate pieces, which rock independently. The only
points of contact are the hip bones - although the backs of my legs
rub the saddle. The two pieces can be adjusted for width and angle. I
know of a couple of women who used these saddles to salvage Race
Across America attempts, when saddle sores otherwise would have taken
them out of the race. I mounted this saddle on the bike on my indoor
trainer, but we had a wickedly mild winter, so I didn't use it this

I have used both the Terry and the Miyata a lot. (These were the two
most popular saddles in the survey.) I've received lots of positive
comments from women (and men) about their experiences with these
saddles.  The men seem to notice the difference more after the ride
later in the evening :) when their partners weren't complaining about
saddle tenderness!

In 1992 I did BMB, a 750 mile ride in less than 4 days on the back of
a tandem.  That's a lot of time on a saddle. I'd been using the Terry
for over 6 months and it worked great on everything up to 200 miles.
But 400 miles into the trip, I was ready to rip the foam out of the
hole. Once the swelling started, the presence of the foam became
unbearable. Even though there was no plastic shell underneath, there
was still something! I asked our crew person to see if he could find
the Miyata saddle. It's often quite difficult to find women's
products, and I was almost shocked when he showed up 20 miles later
with this wonderful saddle with an exposed hole. He had found the
Miyata. The difference was immediately noticeable. In addition to the
missing foam, the hole was further back (more where I needed the
relief). I probably would have finished the ride without it, but I
wouldn't have been in a good mood for days! The Miyata is a little
harder under the sit bones than the Terry, but that's not where I was
experiencing pain, and as Carol said above, it was worth the
sacrifice.  Of course the saddle is different looking and draws lots
of comments and sexual innuendoes, but it saved my ride. Over three
years and 45,000 miles later, including 2 x-country rides and another
BMB, I still love my Miyata and won't ride anything else.

Not all women like the wider saddles. Some women find all women's
saddles too wide.  Several women responded to the survey saying they
prefer a man's saddle. Some of these even felt they had wide hip
bones.  For those who use a narrow saddle, finding one that was flat
on top seemed to help with the above mentioned problems.  Others who
liked various women's saddles still found them a little thick in the
middle, even if they were the right width in the back. Someday, maybe
we will see women's saddles in various widths. We must create the
demand though.

Terry does makes a men's version of their Sport saddle. It is narrower
and has a longer nose and hole than the women's model. It also doesn't
say Terry on it anywhere. Instead it is marketed under the initials
TFI. Both this saddle and new models of the Sport have a (politically
correct) simulated leather covering. I know of several men who really
like this saddle, especially when using aero-bars. Women who find the
Terry Sport too wide may want to check this one out.

I've seen Terry saddles change a bit over the past couple of years.
One change is from a lycra cover to a simulated leather cover. Some
women didn't like the feel of the lycra.  (I do.) Another women
noticed after replacing a stolen one with a new one that the foam in
the hole seems to be getting firmer, kind of negating the benefit of
the hole.  Terry does offer a 30 day money back guarantee on their
products, so you can *painlessly* decide if you'd like a Terry saddle
or not.

They have also produced a couple of racing saddles. The first was the
same width in the back as their Sport model, but narrower through the
middle and had titanium rails. I was one of the lucky few to get one
of these. They replaced it with a Flite lookalike with holes drilled
in the nose. I tried one of these and must say for me it was the most
uncomfortable thing I ever came into contact with. But if you prefer a
narrow saddle like a Flite, you'll probably like this one.

Speaking of which, many women do LIKE Flite and other really narrow
saddles. I know that at their cycling camps, Betsy King and Anna
Schwartz get many women on them. They stress the flexibility of the
saddle with it's titanium rails and thin shell. They are very good for
mountain biking where you want to slide off the back of the saddle for
balance where a wide saddle would get in the way. I even know of a few
women who use them for distance cycling. Two women used them on the
x-country ride I did in 93, but they had very narrow set hip bones.
The other 15 women had women's models of one type or another,
including Terry, Brooks and of course I had my beloved Miyata.

And I would be completely negligent if I didn't mention that one
respondent said that recumbents almost always solve the uncomfortable
saddle problem.  (Thanks to David Wittenberg for pointing this out.
His wife won't ride anything else.)

Other suggestions for improved saddle comfort included trying
different shorts. There are a lot of different shorts out there - far
more than saddles and just like saddles, they all fit differently. The
common theme from most women was to stay away from shorts with seams
in the center. This includes seams in the lycra as well as the chamois
(good luck!). On multiday rides, you may want to use different brands
of shorts, since having the seam in the same place day after day may
also cause irritation. Shorts that bunch up in front may cause also

Pearl Izumi and Urbanek make very nice women's shorts. And of course
Terry produces women's shorts. Some have fuller hips, longer legs,
wider elastic leg grippers, etc. I really prefer bib or one piece
suits, since there is no binding elastic at the waist. These are less
convenient for quick bathroom stops, but I prefer the added comfort.
Some women like longer legs, some shorter. Some prefer thick chamois,
some fake, some real. Try on as many different types as you can, until
you find one that fits you the best. Women are even more varied on
their opinions about shorts than on saddles, so just keep trying new
ones until you find the perfect pair for you.

(And while on the subject of saddle comfort, I use a combination of
Desitin (or some other diaper rash ointment) and powder sprinkled
liberally in my shorts to keep myself dry and rash-free.)

I can't stress enough that each woman is different and no one saddle
is perfect for all of us. Just because a local or national racer, or
your friend, or this author uses a particular type of saddle doesn't
mean that it will work for you. Don't let anyone intimidate you into
riding something that is uncomfortable, or changing the angle of your
saddle because it's different. Use the setup that's most comfortable
for you.

Among the saddles recommended by respondents were
Terry Women's (most popular of the survey)
Miyata Pavea (my favorite and a close second in the survey)
TFI (men's version of the Terry Sport)
women's Selle Italia Turbo
Avocet O2 (said to be as comfy as the above Turbo, but lighter)
WaveFlo Avocet Women's Racing saddle
Viscount saddle
San Marco Regal
Brooks B-17 and Brooks Pro
Terry Racing (like a Flite with holes drilled in the plastic)
Selle Bassano modular seat

(Of course some women swear at saddles that others swear by! Did I
mention that we are all DIFFERENT?)

Since Miyata no longer imports into the US, another source has been
found for the saddle with the hole in the middle. Tandems East is now
carrying this saddle (with their name imprinted on the back.) You can
contact Mel Kornbluh at Tandems East at (609) 451-5104 or (609)
453-8626 FAX.


Subject: 7.8  Women's Bikes

This subject has been compiled from different sources.

   Part 1 is Lynn Karamanos' discussion from her questions about
   purchasing a Terry bike.
   Part 2 is the information from Pamela Blalock about the differences in
   fitting women's bikes and suggestions for what to look for.
   Part 3 was added by Marcy Stutzman and is a listing of different types
   of bikes that are either scaled down with smaller wheels or
   specifically designed for women.
Part 1

Lynn Karamanos <karamano@esd.dl.nec.com>

Here's a summary of the info I received on whether or not to purchase a
Terry bike.

1.) First, find a good bike shop, one that will try to find a bike that
fits you, not just sell you what they have in stock.

2.) Ride many different bikes to see what's best for you. You may be able
to find other bikes that fit just as well as a Terry once you've made some
adjustments/replacements (stem, crank arms, etc.).

3.) If you can't find any other bike to fit you, then a Terry's worth the
extra money.
4.) Except for about two people who sent me email, everyone who's ridden a
Terry has loved it. Even those two people said they knew others who loved
Terry bikes. Bottom line: the fit depends on your build. Women with long
legs/short torso seem to be the ones who like them, not necessarily just
short women.

5.) Also a few people mentioned that there are other road bikes that are
specifically "designed for women" or that fit women well. The names
mentioned: Fuji, Miyata, Bridgestone, Specialized (Sirrus). Also, someone
mentioned that the same production line in Japan that makes Terry
"proportioned" bikes also makes them under other labels. (Also one mountain
bike was named, Mongoose Hilltopper, and two hybred bikes, Univega Via
Activa and Giant Inova.)

6.) Something to keep in mind if you buy a Terry with a small front
wheel... replacement tubes and tires for smaller wheels could be more
difficult to find and/or more expensive.

7.) In case you're looking at older model Terry's, a few people mentioned
that until a couple years ago, some Terry bikes were $200-$300 less than
they are now.
Part 2

Pamela Blalock pamelab@pcdocs.com

Considerations for women buying bikes.
Most production bikes are built proportionally for the AVERAGE MAN.
But the average man tends to be taller than the average woman, so
women, especially smaller women, may have a much more difficult time
finding a bike that fits. Using the old guidelines of sizing a bike by
straddling the top tube may leave you a bike with a top tube that is
too long, since many of these smaller bikes have shorter seat tubes,
but the top tubes are left at the same length as larger bikes, so the
bike is no longer scaled proportionately. Of course this is not
strictly a woman's issue, but one that all smaller riders face.

Empirical evidence has come to suggest that many women are more
comfortable with a shorter top tube - stem combination than men.
Originally it was theorized that this was due to women having longer
legs and shorter torsos than men of the same height. Statistics have
proven otherwise. But despite the similar proportions, many women
still felt stretched out on bikes that men of the same size felt
comfortable on. There is no one definitive explanation for this. Some
have proposed that women may bend from the waist while men pivot more
at the hips, which would explain why two riders with identical torso
lengths might still want different top tube stem lengths. Georgena
Terry has observed that women tend to sit further back on their
saddles than men, which she believes is due to different distributions
in muscle mass. Again this could lead to that stretched out feeling.

I struggled for the longest time to get comfortable on a bike. I always
wanted to sit further back than I could. I finally found a gadget that
I could use to mount my saddle further back on the seat post. This
really helped. What helped even more was when I switched to a softride
bike. I switched for comfort, but discovered a very pleasant benefit,
that with the 5 inch range (fore/aft) of saddle adjustment along the
flat part of the beam, I could effectively choose any seat tube angle
I wanted. I could finally get my saddle far enough back.

A riding position that leaves the rider too stretched out can cause saddle
pain. It is not necessary to run out and buy a new bike right away if the
top tube on your current bike is too long. Using a shorter stem on a this
bike MAY give you a more comfortable reach. Very short stems, less than 40
mm, are available, but may have to be specially ordered.

Some shops use a fitting system called the Fit Kit. The numbers
generated from the Fit Kit are just guidelines and may not work for
everybody, especially women, since most of the original data was
collected for men. It is important to RIDE your bike and make
adjustments to achieve a perfect fit. Others may use an infinitely
adjustable stationary bike. One has been developed by Ben Serotta to
help choose the perfect size bike - whether it is a Serotta or not.
Adjustable stems are available to help you and the shop pick a perfect
length stem the first time, rather than the expensive trial and error
method of buying different length stems repeatedly until you find the
right size. Unless your current bike is a really, really poor fit, you
should be able to make a few relatively inexpensive changes to improve
the fit. Then when upgrading or buying a new bike, use what you have
learned to buy a bike that fits better.

Some builders tried to shorten the top tube by increasing the seat tube
angle, which then may place the rider uncomfortably far forward over the
pedals. This forces the rider to use an adapter in the seat post to get the
saddle back, which counteracts the *shorter* top tube. A steep seat tube
angle may be good for a time trial or triathlon, but is not comfortable for
longer distances, recreational riding or touring. And if it is true that
women tend to be more comfortable sitting further back, then this is really

A sloping top tube has been used by many manufacturers to achieve a shorter
seat tube and more standover clearance, but this leaves the top tube length
the same as that for a larger bike, so the smaller rider still feels
streched out on a somewhat out of proportion bike..

Several manufacturers have started building bikes proportionally sized for
smaller riders to specifically address those needs. There are several
different ways of getting the smaller geometry. Some bikes have a small 24"
wheel in front and a 700C or 26" wheel in back, others have two 26"or 650C
wheels. To truly scale down a frame keeping it in proportion, it is
necessary to go with smaller wheels.

To avoid confusion, let me state that by 26", I am referring to 559mm bead
seat diameter. This size wheel is most commonly used in mountain biking.
Thanks to mountain bikers use of very narrow rims, and a few tire
manufacturers willingness to make narrow, slick tires for this size, these
wheels can be used to build smaller bikes with proper proportions. Several
manufacturers make 1.25 high pressure slicks which are very nice for loaded
touring or casual riding. Specialized has the ATB turbo, which they
advertise as 1 inch wide. I am currently using these on my commuter in good
weather. And I understand from recumbent riding friends that other 26X1"
tires are available through 'bent specialty shops. While the selection of
narrow tires is somewhat limited, it is growing. I understand there is more
variety in Germany, and soon both Ritchey and Continental will have narrow
tires available in the US market.

By 650C, I am referring to wheels with a bead seat diameter of 571mm. These
wheels have found their way onto many triathlon bikes. These wheels are
also occasionally referred to as 26" wheels, which is why the bead seat
diameter number is so important. Tires for these two different *26 inch*
wheel sizes are NOT interchangeable, and it is very important to know which
one you have. Currently there is a very narrow range of tires available for
this wheel size, and I mean narrow in more ways than one. In the US, the
widest available tire is a Continental 23 or Michelin 20. In my opinion,
neither of these tires is really wide enough for general purpose use on
rough roads, and definitely not quite up to touring standards. Of course I
live in New England where road surfaces are quite rough. I have used wheels
of this size on a softride equipped bike. I don't believe I could take the
shock from such a skinny tire on a non-suspended bike, at least not for
longer rides.

700C is of course ISO 622, and is the most common wheel size for road bikes
in the US today.

In addition to a shorter top tube, women's bikes may also have smaller
brake levers, narrower handlebars, shorter cranks and wider saddles.
Georgena Terry was the pioneer in this area, but many other manufacturers
now build women's bikes. They may cost a little more than a comparably
equipped man's bike, due to higher production costs for fewer number of
parts. But, I believe that the extra initial cost to get a properly fit
bike will pay off in the long run, since you will either stop riding an
uncomfortable or poorly fitting bike, or you will eventually replace the
poorly fitting parts at additional cost.

Part 3

Womens Bikes manufacturer list by Marcy Stuzman, mls3z@virginia.edu

I have compiled a partial list of what bikes I have heard of that are
designed specifically for women or small people. I have only ridden one of
these bikes myself, so I really can't comment on any of them. I would like
any comments from owners about these mailed to me so that they can be
included in the future.

Marinoni manufacturers a small frame, but it is not featured in their
homepage. For a description of this bike, you can visit Wedgewood
Cycles home page which does give a description of this bike.

The Marinoni comes in sizes up to 52 cm and has 26 inch wheels, which
can use slick mountain bike tires.

Bianchi makes a version of their bike called the Eros that comes with
the smaller wheels, but their web page so far is only finished in
Italian, so I couldn't discern much about the bike.

Cannondale manufacturered two bikes last year with the compact frame
(R500 and R800), but for 1997 is offering only the R600 in the compact

Rodrigues is manufacturing a small bike which was featured in the Jan
1997? issue of Bicycling magazine. One nice feature is that this bike
uses Dia Comp's small hands brake levers and bar end shifters, which
may be easier for women with small hands to use than the Ergo or STI
shifters that are popular.

Waterford makes a bike, but I have been unable to find much more
information on this manufacturer.

Performance made a bike in 1994 called the Expresso that used a scaled
down design and 650c tires, but this design has been discontinued.

Rivendell also designs 50 cm bikes the 26" mountain bike sized wheels
and offers shorter top tubes on their bikes if you need it.

Trek offers its 470 roadbike in sizes as as small as 43 cm with 700c

Terry bikes have been discusses extensively earlier in this article
and they don't yet have a home page, so I will just refer you to the
discussions above. (e-mail: tpbike@aol.com)

It was brought to my attention that Bike Friday, a folding bike with
20" wheels, does come in very small frame sizes for short people. Many
different brands of mountain bikes come in smaller sizes, including
Bontranger, Fat Chance and Ibis, but small mountain bikes are somewhat
easier to find than small road bikes.


Subject: 7.9  Bike Rentals
From: Various <people>

Skate Escape   Ph. 404-892-1292
1086 Piedmont Ave. (Corner of 12th & Piedmont)
Atlanta, GA. 30332

Lincoln Guide Service
Lincoln Center
Lincoln, MA
(617) 259-9204
  Rents mountain, road, kids bikes, and trailers.  About 11 miles west of
  Boston, within sight of Lincoln Center commuter rail stop.

Team Bicycle Rentals
508 Main
Huntington Beach, CA
(714) 969-5480
  12spd $29/day, MTB $29/day, Santana tandem $69

Gregg's Greenlake
Seattle, WA

Second Gear
Seattle, WA

New York City Area:
All phone numbers are area code (212).

A West Side Bicycle Store -- 231 W 96th St -- 663 7531
Eddie's Bicycles Shop -- 490 Amsterdam Ave -- 580 2011
Country Cycling Tours -- 140 W 83rd St -- 874 5151
AAA Central Park Bicycle Rentals -- 72nd St/ Central Pk Boathouse -- 861 4137
Midtown Bicycles -- 360 W 47th St -- 581 4500
Sixth Avenue Bicycles -- 546 Avenue of the Americas -- 255 5100
Metro Bicycle -- 1311 Lexington Ave -- 427 4450
Larry and Jeff's Bicycles Plus -- 204 E 85th St -- 794 2201
Gene's 79th Street Discounted Bicycles -- 242 E 79th St -- 249 9218
Peddle Pusher Bicycle Shop -- 1306 2nd Ave -- 288 5594
A Bicycle Discount House -- 332 E 14th St -- 228 4344
City Cycles -- 659 Broadway -- 254 4457

San Francisco

Park Cyclery -- 1865 Haight street (at Stanyan) -- 751-RENT
Start to Finish -- 599 2nd Street at Brannan -- 861-4004

Pismo Beach, CA

Beach Cycle Rentals, 150 Hinds Avenue, Pismo Beach, CA  93449 (805) 773-5518
   http://www.fix.net/~pismobill/ or E-Mail pismobill@fix.net

Marin County, CA

Caesars Cyclery -- 29 San Anselmo Ave San Anselmo -- 258-9920
Far-go bike Shop -- 194 Northgate #1 Shopping Center San Rafael -- 472-0253
Ken's Bike and Sport -- 94 Main Street (Downtown Tiburon) -- 435-1683
Wheel Escapes -- 1000 Magnolia Ave Larkspur -- 415-332-0218

Austin, TX area

[all stores rent ONLY mountain bikes]
Bicycle Sport Shop -- 1426 Toomey Road -- (512) 477-3472
University Schwinn -- 2901 N. Lamar Blvd -- (512) 474-6696
University Schwinn -- 1542 W. Anderson Ln -- (512) 474-6696
Velotex Inc -- 908-B W 12th St -- (512) 322-9131

Boulder, CO

Boulder Bikesmith, Arapahoe Village, Boulder, (303) 443-1132
Bike'n'Hike, 1136 Main St, Longmont, (303) 772-5105
High Wheeler, 1015 Pearl St., Boulder, (303) 442-5588
   (MTBs, Road and MTB tandems)
Lousiville Cyclery, 1032 S. Boulder Rd, Louisville, (303) 665-6343
Morgul-Bismark, 1221 Pennsylvania Ave, Boulder, (303) 447-1338
Doc's Ski and Sport, Table Mesa Center, Boulder, (303) 499-0963
University Bikes, 9th and Pearl, Boulder, (303) 449-2562
(MTBs and Tandems)
Full Cycle. 1211 13th St., Boulder, (303) 440-7771
High Gear, 1834 N. Main, Longmont, (303) 772-4327
Cutting Edge Sports, 1387 S. Boulder Rd., Louisville, (303) 666-3440


Subject: 7.10  Bike Lockers
From: David H. Wolfskill <david@dhw68k.cts.com>

Many thanks to all who mailed or posted an interest in my quest for
information regarding bike locker vendors; I apologize for the delay in
posting this summary.

My colleague -- thanks to some of that information -- was able to locate
a sufficiently nearby vendor... one of the requirements of which I had
not been aware was that the vendor must be fairly close (to Orange
County, CA) -- to minimize shipping charges.  (I apologize for failing
to determine this issue before posting, and hope that some of the
information about other vendors may be of value to others.)

I figured it would be more useful for me to organize the information,
so I have done so -- at the expense of making an attempt to give credit
for the sources at the point the information is quoted.  (I include a
list of sources at the end of the article.)

First, I received a few pointers to one Ellen Fletcher, such as:

>For a comprehensive treatment of the bicycle parking subject,
>along with a list of vendors & prices, contact Ellen Fletcher
>at cdp!scvba@labrea.stanford.edu (put "ATTN ELLEN" in your
>"To" line.

[I requested clarification regarding addressing a note to Ms. Fletcher,
but have yet to receive it.]

>... Ellen Fletcher, 777-108 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto, CA
>94303-4826, 415-495-8943.

Fortunately, someone sent a list of products & manufacturers,
apparently originally compiled by Ms. Fletcher.  I have taken the
liberty of using that list as a "base document" and have augmented it
with other information I received; entries are alphabetically by
munufacturer's name, since I don't always have product names:

(Manufacturer, {Product Name(s)}, Address, Contact Person, Phone, FAX

American Bicycle Security Co., {BIKE SAFE}, PO Box 7359 Ventura, CA
        93006, Thomas E. Volk, 805-933-3688 & 800-BIKESAF, 805-933-1865.

Bike Gard  8149 South 600 East, Rexburg ID 83440
        208-356-0744 bikegd@ida.net http://www.ida.net/users/bikegd

Bike Lockers Company, {BikeLokr}, PO Box 445 W. Sacramento, CA 95691,,
        916-372-6620, 916-372-3616 [approx. $300/locker, small

Bike-Lokr Mfg. Co., {?}, PO Box 123, Joplin, MO 64802, Jim Snyder,
        417-673-1960/800-462-4049, 417-673-3642 [approx $450/locker,
        which holds 2 bikes; seem to be the lockers used by the
        Washington, DC Metro system]

Bike Security Racks Co., {?}, PO Box 371, Cambridge, MA 02140,,
        617-547-5755, -

Bike Stable Co., Inc., {?}, PO 1402, South Bend, Indiana 46624,,
        219-233-7060, -

Cycle-Safe Inc., 2772-5 Woodlake Rd. SW Wyoming, MI 49509,,
        (616)538-0079 -

David O'Keefe Company, {Super Secure Bike Stor}, P.O. Box 4457, Alamo,
        CA 94507, Thomas & David O'Keefe, 415-637-4440, 415-837-6234.

General Machine company, {Bicycle Locker}, PO Box 405 Vacaville, CA 95696,
        Vitto Accardi, 707-446-2761, -

J.G.Wilson Corp, {Park'n'Lock Bike Garage}, PO Box 599, Norfolk, VA
        23501-0599, J.L.Bevan, 804-545-8341, 804-543-3249.

Palmer Group, [CrankCase] http://www.bikeparking.com

Sunshine U-LOK Corp., {Secura Bike Locker}, 31316 Via Colinas Suite 102,
        Westlake Village, CA 91362, Doug Devine, 818-707-0110.
        [Specific information near the end of the article -- dhw.]

Turtle Storage Ltd., {?}, P. O. Box 7359, Ventura, CA 93006,,, -

[Ed. note:  The complete posting is available in the archives on


Subject: 7.11  Bike computer features

[This table was created from information contained in Performance and Nashbar
catalogs.  In the table below, 'Y' means that the computer has the feature,
'O' means it is an optional feature.]

                 Speed  Ave   Max  Total Trip  Elpsd Clock Auto  Count
                       Speed Speed Miles Miles Time        OnOff Down
Avocet 30          Y           Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Avocet 40          Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Avocet 50          Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Cateye Micro       Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Cateye Mity        Y           Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Cateye Mity 2      Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Cateye Wireless    Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Cateye Vectra      Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Cateye ATC         Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Ciclo 37           Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y           Y     Y
Ciclo IIA          Y     Y     Y     Y     Y                 Y     Y
Performance ITV    Y                 Y     Y     Y           Y     Y
Vetta Innovator    Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Vetta HR1000       Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Vetta C-10         Y           Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Vetta C-15         Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Vetta C-20         Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Vetta Two          Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Vetta Wireless     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y
Specialized        Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     Y     S
   Speed Zone

                 Cadence Wireless Altitude Heart
Avocet 30
Avocet 40
Avocet 50          O                 Y
Cateye Micro       Y
Cateye Mity
Cateye Mity 2
Cateye Wireless             Y
Cateye Vectra
Cateye ATC
Ciclo 37
Ciclo IIA          O                 O       O
Performance ITV
Vetta Innovator
Vetta HR1000                                 Y
Vetta C-10
Vetta C-15
Vetta C-20         Y
Vetta Two          Y
Vetta Wireless              Y
   Speed Zone


Subject: 7.12  Recumbent Bike Info
From: David Wittenberg <dkw@cs.brandeis.edu>
                     (updated by Gary Walsh  gary.walsh@canrem.com)

Here's my standard response to questions about recumbents.  I'd be
happy to answer more specific questions.

Here's some info I posted in the fall of 1990.  I think it's still pretty much
up to date.  Changes from the last posting are in []'s.

--David Wittenberg

A few words about recumbent design, and then I'll provide a much
larger list of recumbent manufacturers.

There are three main choices in designing (or buying) a recumbent.
Frame material -- all the ones I know of are either Alumninum or Steel.
Wheelbase --  The front wheel can either be in front of the bottom bracket
(long wheelbase) or behind it (short wheelbase).  You can't have a medium
wheelbase without a lot of extra work because the wheel and the bottom
bracket would interfere with each other.  Long wheelbase is reputed to
be a bit more stable, while short wheelbase machines are often easier to
fit into cars for transport.  Some long wheelbase recumbents fold in
neat ways to fit into a remarkably small space.
Handlebars -- under seat or in front of the rider.  Under seat is probably
a more comfortable position when you get used to it (your hands just hang
at your sides), and may be somewhat safer if you get thrown forward as
there is nothing in front of you.  High handlebars are somewhat faster
as your arms are in front of you instead of at your side, thus reducing
the frontal area.  Some people find them more natural.
[There are long wheelbase bikes with both high and low handlebars.  I don't
know of any short wheelbase, low handlebar recumbents, but there may
be some I don't know of.]

The following updated by Gary Walsh (gary.walsh@canrem.com) July 1992.

There are a couple of interesting publications for recumbents:

International Human Powered Vehicle Association
P.O. Box 51255
Indianapolis, IN  46251  USA

They publish Human Power Magazine and HPV News on all aspects of human
powered transportation (bikes, aircraft, watercraft.)
Dues are US$25/year in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, and US$30 elsewhere.

The Recumbent Bicycle Club of America/Recumbent Cyclist Magazine
PO Box 58755
Renton, WA  98058-1755.
(206) 852-8149

The best source of information on commercially available recumbents.  Read
the reviews in this magazine before you buy your first recumbent.
Subscriptions are US$25 in the U.S.A., and US$30/year elsewhere. Sample
issue and info pack $5.  See especially the buyers guide in issue #8
Oct-Dec 1992.

Addresses of recumbent manufacturers:

Ace Tool & Engineering  (Infinity Recumbent)  $1 for a flyer
P.O Box 325
292 W. Harrison St.
Mooresville, IN  46158
(317) 831-8798             Long wheelbase, low handlebars, aluminum frames.
                           $499 + $85 for triple crank option.
                           Information $1.

Alternative Bikestyles
P.O. Box 1344
Bonita, CA 91908
Phone (619)421-5118       Maverick $ Renegade LWB recumbents with upright
                          handlebars.  Framesets from $200.  Complete bikes
                          from $395.

Advanced Transportation Products
550 3rd Ave. N.
Edmonds, WA 98020
Phone (206)771-3719       R-20 SWB.  $1350.  Info pack $2.

Angle Lake Cyclery
20840 Pacific Hwy S.
Seattle WA 98198
Phone (206)878-7457      Counterpoint Presto SWB with upright handlebars.
                             Presto SE Tour $1699.
                             Presto SE High Performance $???.
                             Presto CL $1399.
                         Counterpoint Opus IV Tandem
                             Opus CL $2999
                             Opus SE $3599
                         Tri Com Trikes $600-$700.
                         Catalogue $2

Original Car-Cycle Technology
1311 Victoria Ave.
Victoria, B.C.,
Canada V8S 4P4
Phone (604)598-7830      Fully fared commuter trike.  Under development.

DH Recumbents, Inc.
4007-G Bellaire Blvd.
Houston, TX 77025
Phone (713)666-4452      LWB with upright steering.
                         DH1000 $999, DH5000 $1395.

Earth Traveller
1475 Lillian St.
Livermore, CA 94550
Phone (415)449-8312      LWB trike with 2 wheels in back.
                         Information $1.

Earth Friendly Transportation
5755 NW Fair Oaks Dr.
Corvallis, OR  97330
(503) 753-5178           The Trice is a recumbent tricycle, with
                       two wheels in front.  Touring $1495.
                       Speed model $1595.
                       Also imports Ross recumbent from England.
                       $2 for flyer, $9 for video tape.

Easy Racers, Inc
Box 255H
Freedom, CA  95019
(408) 722-9797         High handlebar, long wheelbase bikes.
                       Easy Racer $2300.  Frameset $1650.
                       Gold Rush Replica, commercial version of
                       the Dupont prize winning Gold Rush (world's
                       fastest bike) also available.
                       $2 for a catalog

Lightning Cycle Dynamics
312 Ninth Street
Lompoc,   CA  93436
(805) 736-0700            P-38 Short Wheelbase, high handlebars.
                          Full fairings are available, and very
                          fast.  $1750.
                          F-40 fully fared version.

Lightning Cycle Inc. (Tailwind)        $1 for a brochure
3819 Rte.  295
Swanton, OH  43558
(419) 826-4056            Steel long wheelbase, underseat steering.
                          Around $1200.

Linear Manufacturing Inc.  (Linear)
Route 1, Box 173
Guttenberg,  IA  52052
(319) 252-1637           Long Wheelbase aluminum bike with either
                         high or low handlebars  (You can convert
                         from one to the other.)  $900 to $1200.
                         They sell through dealers, and if you
                         get in touch with them they'll tell you
                         where the nearest dealer is.  Canadians
                         see S.C. Safety Cycle below.

Rans Recumbents
1104 E. Hwy. 40 Bypass
Hays,  KS  67601
(913) 625-6346          Rans Stratus A & B and Nimbus. LWB with
                        upright handlebars.  $995-$1495.

P.O Box 725
Boca Raton, FL 33429
Phone (407)750-1304    The ReBike.  A low priced semi-recumbent
                       with upright steering.  New and a big seller.

915 Middle Rincon Rd.
Santa Rosa,  CA  95409
(707) 539-4203          Rotator Super-7 Streamliner - LWB with 20" wheels.
                        Rotator Companion Tandem.

Rhoades International
100 Rhoades Lane
Hendersonville, TN 37075
Phone (615)822-2737     4-wheel pedal car. $999 and up.
                        Information $4. Video $19.

Ryan Recumbents, Inc.
99R Washinton Street
Melrose MA 02176
ph/fax 617-979-0072
e-mail:  www.ryanbike@ryancyles.com
web address:  www.ryancycles.com
                        Vanguard. Long wheelbase, underseat steering.
                        From $1295.

S.C. Safety Cycle Inc.
1340B St. Paul St.
Kelowna, B.C.
Canada V1Y 2E1          Canadian distributor of the Linear which is
                        sold as "The Alternative."  CAN$1495.

Special Purpose Vehicles
120 Prospect Street
Somerville, MA 02143
(617) 625-9030

Thebis International
110-2031 Malaview Ave.
Sidney, B.C.
Canada V8L 3X9
Phone (604)656-1237
1-800-667-6801         Thebis 201 Touring Trike. Two wheels in back.

2359 Trailmate Dr.
Sarasota FL 34243
Phone (813)755-5511     Fun Cycle and Bannana Peel trikes. $399.

Turner Enterprises
P.O.Box 36158
Los Angeles, CA 90036
Phone (383)-0030       SWB with underseat steering.
                       Laid Back "E" frame kit $375.
                       LB-2000  $1500.  Frameset $899.

Zzip Designs
P.O. Box 14
Davenport, CA 95017
Phone (408)425-8650    Manufacturer of fairings for many of the
                       bikes listed above.

P.O. Box 884
Adrian, MI 49221
1-800-678-1021         Good source for parts for builders.  May not be in
                       business any more.

European Recumbents

Leitra APS
PO Box 64 DK-2750
Ballerup, Denmark      Leitra M2 fully fared commuter trike.
                       3400 DM for the trike.
                       5845 DM for complete vehicle with accessories.

Bas Ten Brinke
Postbus 10075
1301 Almere,
Netherlands            Flevo SWB front wheel drive.

Fateba, Bachman & Co.
Rosenstr. 9,
8400 Winterthur
Switzerland            Fateba Winglet L1  LWB.

Miles Kingsbury
Lane End Road, Sands,
High Wycombe, Bucks
HP12 4JQ England       The Kingcycle SWB.

Bram Moens
Waalstraat 41,
NL-4335 KL
Middleburg, Netherlands.   M5 SWB.

The Lees Stables
Coldstream, Berwickshire,
Scotland TD12-4NN          Dealer for Kingcycle SWB and Radius
                           Peer Gynt LWB.

Frie-Vendt-Str 16, D-4400
Munster, Germany RFA       Peer Gynt LWB with underseat steering.

More Recumbent Bike Info  (Gary Walsh  gary.walsh@canrem.com)

[This has been copied from a flyer written by Robert Bryant of the
Recumbent Cyclist Magazine.  He has given me permission to submit
it for the FAQ. - Gary]

          Have You Ever Considered a RECUMBENT BICYCLE?

     There are many reasons to consider a recumbent.  First and foremost
is comfort.  When you ride a recumbent bicycle you will no longer have
an aching back, stiff neck, numb wrists or a sore a sore bottom.  You
will sit in a relaxed easy-chair position.  You will be able to ride
longer with less fatigue and arrive at your destination feeling
refreshed.  The recumbent position offerd you a great view of the
countryside. While seated you will look straight ahead. This allows your
lungs and chest more open and free breathing.  Recumbents are very
versatile machines.  They can be used for a wide range of applications:
recreational/sport riding, for the daily commute, a fast double century
and they are great for long distance touring.

     Recumbents hold all of the human-powered speed records.  This is
because they are aerodynamically superior to conventional bicycles;
less frontal area means less wind resistance.  The Lightning F-40
currently holds the Race Across America speed record of five days and
one hour.  Gardner Martin's Easy Racer Gold Rush, ridden by Fast Freddie
Markham, was the winner of the Dupont Prize for breaking 65mph.  You
can currently buy production versions of these bicycles.  Fairings for
street use are common and optional equipment on most commercially built
models.  They protect you from rain, cold and wind, with up to a 30%
reduction in drag.  Commercially available recumbents are not always
faster than conventional bicycles.  It depends mainly on the individual
rider.  Your best bet is to do you homework and if your goal is
performance and speed, be sure that you look for a recumbent designed
for this purpose.

1) Do recumbents climb hills well?  Yes they do, although climbing on a
recumbent requires a different technique, you must gear down and spin.
Maintaining an efficient spin takes some practice & conditioning, once
mastered, it takes less physical effort to climb hills.  Depending on
your riding style, your speeds can range from slowwer to even faster
than on a conventional bicycle.
2) Can recumbents be seen in traffic?  Recumbents with a higher seating
position may be better suited for riding in traffic than some of the
low-slung designs.  The use of use of proper safety devices such as
safety flags and reflective devices is recommended.  Recumbent bicycles
are different, futuristic and they get noticed.  Many riders feel they
get more respect from motorists while on their recumbents.
3) Are they safe?  Recumbent's are safer than a conventional bicycle.
Due to the low centre of gravity, they stop faster.  Brakes can be
evenly applied to both wheels simultaneously providing more traction
without throwing the rider over the handlebars.  In crash situations,
the rider goes down to the side absorbing the impact with the hip and
leg rather than flying over the handlebars and absorbing the impact on
your head and shoulder.  Straight ahead vision is also better on a
recumbent, however, rear view mirrors are necessary for proper

     Why are recumbents such a rare sight?  Space age technology?  New
type of bicycle?  Not really, recumbent bicycles actually go back as
far as the mid to late 1800's with the Macmillan Velocopede and the
Challand Recumbent.  In the 1930's, a series of events took place that
changed bicycling history.  A French second category professional
track cyclist named Francois Faure rode the Velocar, a two wheeled
recumbent bicycle designed and built by Charles Mochet, to
record-shattering speeds, breaking both the mile and kilometre records
of the day.  This created a storm of controversy within the U.C.I.
(United Cycliste International), bicycle rating's governing body.  The
debate centred on whether the Velocar was a bicycle and were these
records legal?  In 1934 they ruled against the Mochet-Faure record,
banning recumbent bicycles and aerodynamic devices from racing.  Were
U.C.I. members worried that the recumbent bicycle would displace the
conventional design?  Did they realize this would freeze bicycle and
human-powered vehicle development for the next forty years?  This is
why bicycles of taday look very similar to the Starkey and Sutton
Safety (upright/conventional) of 1885.  Just think where bicycle
technology would be today if the U.C.I. decision had gone the opposite

     Recumbent development was fairly quiet until the late 1960's.  Dan
Henry received some media attention for his long wheelbase design in
1968.  In the early 1970's, the human-powered revolution was starting up
on both the U.S. east coast by David Gordon, designer of the Avatar, and
on the west coast by Chester Kyle.  These pioneers recognized the need
for further development of human-powered vehicles. In the late 1970's
and early 1980's, this lead to the first commercial recumbent bicycle
designs such as the Avatar, Easy Racer and Hypercycle.  In 1990, the
Recumbent Bicycle Club of America was founded by Dick Ryan who currently
manufactures the Ryan Vanguard and was also involved with the Avatar
project in the early 1980's.  In 1988 recumbent promoter Robert Bryant
got his start writing "Recumbent Ramblings," a column for "HPV News."
In the summer of 1990, Robert founded the "Recumbent Cyclist Magazine,"
and in a short two years, RCM has become the source for recumbent bicyle
information in the world today.


17560-B6-140th Ave SE, Ste 341
Renton WA 98058

__$2 Info-Pak/recumbent manufacturer list
__$5 Current sample issue with info-pak/list
__$20 USA Bulk Mail Subscription
__$25 USA First Class Mail Subscription Rush Service
__$30 Canada Air Mail
__$35 Worldwide Air Mail (USA funds) (anywhere outside USA/CAN)
__$50 Junior Supporter (includes 3 copies of each issue, mailed first
__$100 RBCA Supporter (includes 10 copies of each issue mailed Priority)


-Back issues are mailed 3rd class postage. (allow 4 weeks for delivery.)
-First Class Mail/Rush Service - add $.50 per issue.
-Canadian Air Mail/Rush Service - add $1.00 per issue.
-Worldwide Air Mail - add $2.00 per issue.
-Super-Rush Service?  We can do FEDEX overnight C.O.D.

$4.00  __RC#2  Flevo & CSPC "Poor Man's Composite"
$4.00  __RC#3  DH5000 LWB Road Test
$4.00  __RC#4  Ryan Vanguard Road Test/F-40/Flevo
$4.00  __RC#5  Linear LWB Road Test/Omega HPV/HPV Design Info
$4.50  __RC#6  Easy Racer Road Test
$4.50  __RC#7  Lightning P-38 Road Test
$4.50  __RC#8  1992 Recumbent Buyers Guide
$4.50  __RC#9  A.T.P. R-20 SWB Road Test
$4.50  __RC#10 Thebis Trike Road Test
$4.50  __RC#11 Counterpoint Presto Road Test
$4.50  __RC#12 Rans Road Test (available 9/92)
$4.50  __RC#13 Trice Road Test (Available 11/92)
$4.50  __RC#14 (Available 1/93)
$4.50  __RC#14 (Available 3/93)
$4.50  __RC#15 (Available 5/93)


Subject: 7.13  Buying a Bike

One thing to decide before buying a bike is what type to buy.  Here's a
brief list:

  Road bike    Once known as a "ten-speed", most are now 12 or 14 (or even
               16) speed.  There are several sub-types: racing, sport,
               and touring, the difference mostly in frame geometry.

  ATB          All-terrain bike, also known as mountain bike.  Great for
               riding in the dirt, these bikes usually have fat, knobby
               tires for traction in dirt and gravel.

  Hybrid       A bike that borrows from road bikes and ATBs.  For example,
               they have the light frame and 700c wheels of road bikes and
               fat knobby tires, triple cranks, wide-range derailleurs,
               flat handlebars and cantilever brakes from mountain bikes.

Bike buying hints

When you're ready to buy a bike, you should first decide what you want
to use the bike for.  Do you want to race?  Do you want to pedal along
leisurely?  Do you want to ride in the dirt?

Next, you should decide on a price range.  Plan to spend at least
$350 for a decent quality bike.

Now find a good bike shop.  Ask friends who bike.  Ask us here on the
net.  Chances are, someone here lives in your area and can recommend
a shop.

Now that you are ready to look for a bike, visit the shop(s) you have
selected.  Test ride several bikes in your price range.  How does it
feel?  Does it fit you?  How does it shift?  Does it have the features
you are looking for?  How do the shop personnel treat you?  Remember
that the shop gets the bike disassembled and has to spend a couple of
hours putting it together and adjusting things, so look for sloppy
work (If you see some, you may want to try another shop).  You might
want to try a bike above your price range to see what the differences
are (ask the salesperson).

Ask lots of questions - pick the salesperson's brain.  If you don't
ask questions, they may recommend a bike that's not quite right
for you.  Ask about places to ride, clubs, how to take care of your
bike, warranties, etc.  Good shops will have knowledgable people
who can answer your questions.  Some shops have free or low-cost
classes on bike maintenance; go and learn about how to fix a flat,
adjust the brakes and derailleurs, overhaul your bike, etc.
Ask your questions here - there are lots of people here just waiting
for an excuse to post!

Make sure that the bike fits you.  If you don't, you may find that
you'll be sore in places you never knew could be so sore.  For road
bikes, you should be able to straddle the top tube with your feet flat
on the ground and still have about 1 inch of clearance.  For mountain
bikes, give yourself at least 2-3 inches of clearance.  You may need
a longer or shorter stem or cranks depending on your build - most
bikes are setup for "average" bodies.  The bike shop can help you
with adjustments to the handlebars and seat.

Now that you've decided on a bike, you need some accessories.  You
should consider buying

   a helmet
   a frame pump
   a tube repair kit
   tire levers (plastic)
   a pressure gauge
   a seat pack (for repair kit, wallet, keys, etc)
   a water bottle and cage
   a lock
The shop can help you select these items and install them on your bike.


Subject: 7.14  Kid's Bike Clothes

There are several places selling shorts and jerseys for kids:

  Performance Bike Shop  (see listing in section 9.2)
  Nashbar                ( "" )
  Rad Rat Ragz
    303/247-4649 (CO)
    617/423-2944 (MA)
  Teri T's
    503/383-2243 (OR)


Subject: 7.15  Repair stands

THe Bicycle Service Station WWW site is at:



Subject: 7.16  Updated Bike Locker listing
From:    john.thompson@londonlife.com (Thompson, John C.)
Date:    Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:28:59 -0400

Bicycle Lockers - a Survey on the Internet - by John Thompson

At the January, 1998 City of London, Ontario, Canada Bicycle Advisory
Committee meeting, engineering department staff mentioned that City Hall
would be implementing facilities to better store bicycles for employees
who bicycle to work.  I understand that the planned facility is to be a
fenced, locked compound with a method of providing keys to the shared
facility for users.

At that meeting, I agreed to do a survey of bicycle locker facilities on
the Internet, to add possible improved options for the City to consider.
 I had also been interested in bicycle lockers at my place of employment
for quite some time now.  I have had my bike vandalized at work more than
once.  Also I find it takes too much time each day to remove the "gear"
from my bike (such as lights, handlebar bag and pump,) so it doesn't get
stolen or vandalized.  I'm interested in acquiring a bicycle locker at

Here are the results of my survey, done in March, 1998.  The first source
of information I came across was an excellent start, and I must give
credit to the author, David H. Wolfskill, e-mail <david@dhw68k.cts.com>.
 I found this material first at the rec.bicycles news group Frequently
Asked Questions, and the article is located at:
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/44.html.  I also ran across many other
versions in my search.  This article seems to be the definitive material
on bicycle lockers to this point.

I took the 12 companies David posted, adding 4 new Internet accessible
vendors, for a total of 16 companies.  I also added the Internet address
for the companies that I found on the "net", also adding e-mail
addresses, and pricing where they existed.  I have not checked any of the
11 companies for which I could not find a web site.

 I have looked at the 5 Internet sites, and the products there offer a
reasonable range of capability.  I have summarized some of the
interesting points:  (This was formatted for a Word 6.0/95 document, and
didn't make it very well to the text version.)

                 Construction                 # bikes    Bike Position
 In use since Shape        Size
Bike Guard       Steel or Stainless Steel       1        standing
         1996?     Wedge        47.5" x 73" x 72" high
                                                         on rear wheel
Bike Lid         Polyethylene with steel base  1 or 2    Upright in
       1996      Form fitting 43" x 96" x approx 50" high
                                                         a wheel stand
Dura-Locker      fiberglass, molded HDPE,     1 or 2     Upright
            ?       Rectangle    40" x 75" x 51" high
                 powder-coated steel, and
                 stainless steel
Crankcase Class  Walls, top and door frames
  1 locker       of 14 gauge galvanized sheet
                 metal. Doors of 12 gauge
                 galvanized sheet metal         2        Upright
            ?       Rectangle    42" x 75" x 45" high
Guardian Bicycle Molded Polyethelyene           1        Standing
           ?       Wedge        (unknown, but looks a bit larger than a
Bike Guard)
 Locker                                                  on rear wheel

One of the key issues will be shipping cost, so I am investigating the
SPI Industries company because it is in Ontario, relatively close to our
London Location.  I included this information in my submission to the BAC
for its April, 1998 meeting as an FYI item.  I will also print some
copies of the web information and bring it to the meeting to hand out to
interested members.

 Here's the full updated Bike Locker company information:

Manufacturer: American Bicycle Security Co.
                Product: BIKE SAFE
                Address: PO Box 7359 Ventura, CA 93006
                Contact: Thomas E. Volk
                  Phone: 805-933-3688 & 800-BIKESAF
                    Fax: 805-933-1865

           Manufacturer: Bike Gard
                Address: 8149 South 600 East, Rexburg ID 83440
                  Phone: 208-356-0744
               WEB_Site: http://www.ida.net/users/bikegd

           Manufacturer: Bike Lid
                Address: 322 W. 57th St., Suite 495, NY, NY 10019
                Product: Bike Lid
                  Phone: 212-245-6623
                    Fax: 212-765-9803
               WEB_Site: www.bikelid.com
                Pricing: $845US for one, plus shipping 15%

           Manufacturer: Bike Lockers Company
                Address: PO Box 445 W. Sacramento, CA 95691
                Product: BikeLokr
                  Phone: 916-372-6620
                    Fax: 916-372-3616
                Pricing: approx. $300US/locker, small quantities

           Manufacturer: Bike Security Racks Co.
                Address: PO Box 371, Cambridge, MA 02140
                Product:  ?
                  Phone: 617-547-5755

           Manufacturer: Bike Stable Co., Inc.
                Address: PO 1402, South Bend, Indiana 46624
                Product:  ?
                  Phone: 219-233-7060

           Manufacturer: Bike-Lokr Mfg. Co.
                Address: PO Box 123, Joplin, MO 64802
                Product:  ?
                Contact:  Jim Snyder
                  Phone: 417-673-1960/800-462-4049
                    Fax: 417-673-3642
                Pricing: approx $450US/locker, which holds 2 bikes

           Manufacturer: Cycle-Safe Inc.
                Address: 2772-5 Woodlake Rd. SW Wyoming, MI 49509
                  Phone: (616)538-0079

           Manufacturer: David O'Keefe Company
                Address: P.O. Box 4457, Alamo,CA 94507
                Product: Super Secure Bike Stor
                Contact: Thomas & David O'Keefe
                  Phone: 415-637-4440
                    Fax: 415-837-6234

           Manufacturer: General Machine company
                Address: PO Box 405 Vacaville, CA 95696
                Product: Bicycle Locker
                Contact: Vitto Accardi
                  Phone:  707-446-2761

           Manufacturer: J.G.Wilson Corp
                Address: PO Box 599, Norfolk, VA 23501-0599
                Product: Park'n'Lock Bike Garage
                Contact: J.L.Bevan
                  Phone:  804-545-8341
                    Fax: 804-543-3249

           Manufacturer: Madrax, A T.L. Graber Co.
                Address: 2210 Pinehurst Drive, Middleton, Wisconsin 53362
                Product: Dura-Locker
                  Phone: 800-448-7931 or 608-831-9040
                    Fax: 608-831-7623
               WEB_Site: http://www.madrax.com/duralock.htm

           Manufacturer: Palmer Group
                Address: 1072 Folsom, Suite 328, San Francisco, CA 94103
                Product: CrankCase
                  Phone:  415-985-7128
               WEB_Site: http://www.bikeparking.com

           Manufacturer: SPI Industries Inc.
                Address: Box 10, R.R. #2, Shallow Lake, Ontario, N0H 2K0
                Product: Guardian Bicycle Locker Systems
                  Phone: 800-269-6533 or 519-935-2211